It is hilarious that you claim "I grew up with this word being very important, getting and showing people respect so on and so forth." yet showed me none whatsoever.
Good on you Mike. Now complaining that I disrespected you when I gave you my oppinion and analogy from your first post without any snide remarks or personal attacks, so I believe I respected your answer however I did not agree with it and said so accordingly, but you replied with me having my panties up my crack in your next post. So yes, why should I take you seriously and show you any respect as you seem to like stirring up trouble from your posts directed to me, like I said before respect is earned ,not automaticaly aplied. Oh and BTW I think the word you are looking for is "petulant ass".
So have a good day, because I much more pressing concerns than worry about what you think.
The patient is your customer, no? He or she is paying money for your services, no?
Remind your employee of that fact. お客様は神様だ！(The customer is always right)
How about we just agree that to the Japanese you can't use "respect" in an easily translatable form. It's like asking for a simple standardized literal English equivalent for "よろしくお願いします". Just doesn't translate the way you want/hope without taking into context all the nuances/subtleties/circumstances involved. Oh, and let's try and stay civil and avoid future name-calling. You guys should know better.
あなたの私の扱い方にはがまんならない。
あなたの私に対する扱いはどうかと思います。
And by the way...
RESPEK!!!
I do believe that, but there are times in work situations when this can be said to staff when disrespect is shown to another person. I realise that it is not an expression that is positive and the reciveing end is usually being given a strong talking to. But in some situations (depends on the mindset of the person) this can have a positive effect on someone to pull them back in line when they have gotten out of it. But in Japan, I have never come across a situation where asking someone for respect is positive. I don't know whether it is just not possible or that I just have not been informed yet. I accept if it is not possible to be said, but I still believe in searching all my options when it comes to expressing myself and in return being percieved exactly the way I want to be.
If it's towards the patients, like staff is not showing the elderly the particular consideration you see that they are worth or the regard they deserve as paying clientele, I suppose you could use something around 礼儀正しい or 敬意 (pay/show respect to) （私はあなたの上司だからそれ相応に敬意を払わなければならない。） or even 尊重。
There are more conciliatory expressions that evidently haven't worked in this case. I basically feel uncomfortable, though, trying to answer more without more of a nuanced context to work from. :relief:
Answer by translating this , a simple question which has nothing to do with me , but I will use for the purpose of showing that there is not a good word or translation for the word respect "How do you gain respect?" どうやって尊敬を得るのですか？ :?
Even in America you can't say it publicly without sounding all high and mighty. :relief: The only exception may be exorbitantly over-priced (valued) athletes or other celebrities trying to renegotiate their contracts. People who likely don't have a lot of self-respect to begin with so they like to defer that responsibility to others...
1. You're insisting on fitting a linguistic round peg into a cultural square hole. No wonder you're frustrated.
2. You're confusing "respect" and "civility".
And thanks for the correction on "petulant". It is indeed the word I was searching for.
Outside of this thread, where have I shown a predeliction toward stirring up trouble with posts interacting with you?
Of course, it depends on the situation, but it's say, a member of your staff that isn't showing the proper respect to a patient, I might say something like 患者さんと話してるときは、もっと適切な言葉で話しましょうね。 Although I'd have to say that I'd never say "give me the respect I deserve" in either English or Japanese; it just sounds like an invitation to treat me with even less respect :p
Let me rephrase, "Show the respect that your parents deserve." or how about this one "Respect your elders" . Every translation I have come across is always very hard for a native Japanese to understand.
Just because your daily life is keeping your panties jammed up your crack is no call to vent on me.
I am talking with one of my staff in this situation. Implying that there needs to be a certain amount of respect shown to ones superiors, especially with the freeshman staff.
上司に向かって言葉に気を付けろ。
Howzat?
Just one attempt to help.
I think that it's probably best to frame this in terms of social hierarchy, rather than simply, "Respect me!" even if my attempt isn't very good.
Thats a great answer and it is what can be said about peoples attitudes. However I just can't seem to find how to express myself in regards to respect. I grew up with this word being very important, getting and showing people respect so on and so forth.
そうですね。細かすぎて、普通の人には分類できないものも出てくると思いますそうですね。:-)
But,I hope you don't think that is what I have been asking all along?:bluush:
Although I'm pretty sure they can understand and use teineigo....No, was responding to Petenshber's comment re rudeness to patients (I'm assuming that was the target being referenced). Of course your employees will need training to reach the point with their own speech that you need them to be at. On the other hand, civility must be deteriorating faster than I realized if they argue on the necessity of using high language at all. :okashii:
But then what do i know?
I'll be quiet now.
There are situations like that can be delt with like you say. But, there are also times when finesse is needed, you can't expect people to take crap from there boss when they don't have an explanation as to why their boss wants it done a certain way. (do this and do that mentality won't get you very far for very long. Or did I miss-interpret your statement?) It is the same any where, poeple have there own oppinions on how to handle a situation in work and in private, but when that conflicts with a person in authority at work is when the problem arises. It is then nessessary to explain as to why things need to be done a certain way and 9 times out of 10 even if they do not agree with that idea people will follow the regulations set out if the time is taken to explain to them personaly. On the other hand if you do not all you will get is a bunch of unhappy people doing the bare minimum so as they can get their pay check.
Thanks for the thought though.
It is hilarious that you claim "I grew up with this word being very important, getting and showing people respect so on and so forth." yet showed me none whatsoever.
Of course, it depends on the situation, but it's say, a member of your staff that isn't showing the proper respect to a patient, I might say something like 患者さんと話してるときは、もっと適切な言葉で話しま しょうね。 Although I'd have to say that I'd never say "give me the respect I deserve" in either English or Japanese; it just sounds like an invitation to treat me with even less respect :p
Yeah, I have those words without getting the desired effect that I was looking for (敬老,親孝行). However your other examples get across the message through my experience. Maybe it is just me, but all this time I have felt that there was a better way to get the message across, again it just maybe me worried that what I have said has had an impact on the other party(going back to my previous concerns about how people here adhear to the "本音と建て前")
I am not saying that I want to use that statement , however there are times when I have felt it would have been apropriate. I do however feel that the word cannot be used in the same fashion as we do in english and would have loved to know if there was a way that could be said for a Japanese person to relate to.
Elisabeth, as you say there are other factors here at work, but the main one is getting the message across load and clear. Ever wondered why another fluent gaijins Japanese is easy to understand? Because we basicaly have the same way of thinking and expressing ourselves. Admitedly that way of thinking gradualy fades with time after emursing yourself in this culture. But every now and again you get blank looking faces b/c you used an English derived expression, even though it has been translated perfectly. The fact is if it is not something the person is used to hearing or has heard it losses it effect. I said something similar to this before however it was not regarding me（私はあなたの上司だからそれ相応に敬意を払わなけ ればならない。） and the response was "In what way" so based on that, I feel that there is just not a good way of using the word respect.
Just one attempt to help.
I think that it's probably best to frame this in terms of social hierarchy, rather than simply, "Respect me!" even if my attempt isn't very good.
Your answer is a cop out if you ask me, what does this have to do with the translation of the statement? I am asking how someone would go about saying something like this, which is BTW a perfectly fine question to be asked in English, But obviously is quite difficult to be translated. If I go along with your way of thinking , any question I ask to be translated will end up with the same kind of answer, eg if I wanted this translated "What is the thermal conductivity coefficient of metal at high temperatures?" and your answer would be "this is not a language problem but more a problem with physics and the nature of a particular metal. " or if you said to a child "How much icecream do you think you deserve for being good?" agian your answer would be "this is about differing oppinions about how I think the child deserves as oppossed to the child thoughts." :okashii:
Let me rephrase, "Show the respect that your parents deserve." or how about this one "Respect your elders" . Every translation I have come across is always very hard for a native Japanese to understand.
In which situation?
With your boss, your co-worker or customer asking unreasonable request, or with your girlfriend?
I am talking with one of my staff in this situation. Implying that there needs to be a certain amount of respect shown to ones superiors, especially with the freeshman staff.
上司に向かって言葉に気を付けろ。
Howzat?
Unfortuanately I was not venting, however I was replying to your obvious lack of intrest in my question, which BTW you still have failed to answer. Funny when people get given the same back they get all defensive, makes me laugh really.
上司に向かって言葉に気を付けろ。 "Be careful of what you say when addressing your boss. "
This still does not address the question I had about using the word or meaning of the the word respect. Your answer typical of what someone might say when telling staff to watch what they say to people.
Answer by translating this , a simple question which has nothing to do with me , but I will use for the purpose of showing that there is not a good word or translation for the word respect "How do you gain respect?" .
But then what do i know?
I'll be quiet now.
1. You're insisting on fitting a linguistic round peg into a cultural square hole. No wonder you're frustrated.
2. You're confusing "respect" and "civility".
And thanks for the correction on "petulant". It is indeed the word I was searching for.
Outside of this thread, where have I shown a predeliction toward stirring up trouble with posts interacting with you?
1. I don't believe I am insiisting on doing that as I said in my first post "If any one has a good way of saying that I would love to hear it", I am how ever reaching out and using any means to find if there is a better way of useing the word respect in its general meaning.
2. I don't believe I am , why? B/c people, especialy here can be very civil while being extremly disrespectful. Respect as you know is not only about words, but is as wikipedia says "an assumption of good faith and competence in another person or in the whole of oneself and depth of integrity, trust,actions and attitudes towards other people." This is something that the English language has lumped together and called respect.
And Mike ,I never said anything about outside this thread.
I think I may have heard the word used at most about three times over the last two decades. The concept of behaving/speaking in a manner appropriate to one's position relative to another person I've heard come up quite a bit. But never with "respect" attached to it anywhere.
Elizabeth, I have to agree with Mike here, I also have rarely heard it being used even when one of the mangers are addressing a situation in which I beleive the word could be used. I have to also agree with Iron Chef as well, it was a last ditch effort to see if it was possible to get a good translation so I guess what I am doing now is right.
Thanks for all who posted.
What you're doing now I assume is trying a different take on what you've done before -- using a softer, less direct approach for these problems ?
I agree the meaning may not be that different, but the impact that this word has is definately different in Japanese. I think anyone who learns another langauge has certain expressions they wish to say from their native langauge to really get the message that want across, however sometimes these have the oppisite effect as you may already know.I realize that no matter how much you want something to work eg, using certain expressions from your own langauge , to covey a clearer picture for the opposite party does not always have the desired effect. However, sometimes unknown to the non-native that there is are expresions that express the same desired meaning in a completetly different line of words ( something that unlless was explained to you ,you would have difficulty understanding why it translates as the expression you were looking for) , I was hoping there was something like this in regards to the word "respect" , hense my intial please no "直訳" expressions please.
But yeah definately 従業員（こども）を命令しないで。言って聞かせなさいね 。
Keigo is not needed when talking to your staff. But yes it needs to be explained to freshmen entering the workforce. Just b/c they are Japanese does not automaticaly mean they can all speak keigo/kensongo/sonkeigo/teineigo/kenjyougo and understand why it needs to be used. But,I hope you don't think that is what I have been asking all along?:bluush:
The patient is your customer, no? He or she is paying money for your services, no?
Remind your employee of that fact. お客様は神様だ！(The customer is always right)
Ofcorse that is true and is what I keep reminding them. But it is in the situation with attitudes towards superiors.
In English we also use the word disrespect/disrespectful (失礼/無礼), but this word carries a whole different feeling when being used in Japanese and is used in a wide variety of situations here. But in English it is the opposite to respect and carries with it a certain amount of weight. I just don't think the word can be used or translated like it is in English, is that a supprise? No, b/c that is what I figured before I posted, but anything is worth looking further into as you never know what you will come up with.
I'm not convinced the core level meaning of the word is that different between the two languages or that a translation is intrinsically culturally nuanced. Native speakers I've asked at least about some of these "respect" expressions have not had any difficulty coming up with viable equivalents.
The problem is the word simply is not used nearly as much as Japanese for some of the reasons explained above and thus has a very different implication when it is brought out. :relief:
I understand all that and if you needed a general term analogous to 'respect,' that doesn't appear to exist. If you needed something more context specific, the situation for the expression to be effective needed to be explained in clear and logical detail.
In the absence of that, I sincerely hope you've found some of these suggestions useful but any translation advice really does become a process of hit and miss reading into the various insinuations. :blush: Yet, as you've indicated, surely those gentler, nuanced alternatives are well known already....:wave:
奥が深い 言語です。:)
I remember some years back a survey asking kids if they "respect"(尊敬する） their parents. I remember thinking that it sounded strange to my ears, as I always thought respecting one's parents was a different kind of respect than that.
That is why I think that it's best in Japanese not to be so particular to the word "respect", but rather put it in terms of the social order, where it is assumed that one should respect his or her superiors. With that assumption in place, there'S no need to specifically state it per se.
At the very least, I have never heard the expressions 尊敬しろ or 敬服しろ or the like in real-life Japanese.
Neither have I , but I thought I would ask you guys here and see if it was just me lacking in that department. Believe me ,I have been in many a aurgument that involves a lack of respect on the their behalf, not necessarly towards me but to patients in general.
The problem is the word simply is not used nearly as much as Japanese for some of the reasons explained above and thus has a very different implication when it is brought out. :relief:
I think I may have heard the word used at most about three times over the last two decades. The concept of behaving/speaking in a manner appropriate to one's position relative to another person I've heard come up quite a bit. But never with "respect" attached to it anywhere.
Thanks for the thought though.
I don't think what Petenshber intended to say was that reminding employees of the proper to address their customers was giving those people crap without explanation. I mean, how many Japanese require a fine tuned discussion on the logic of keigo ? That's their life after all and the mentality behind what they've grown up to always expect.
But yeah definately 部下にどなって命令しないで。言って聞かせなさいね。
I remember some years back a survey asking kids if they "respect"(尊敬する） their parents. I remember thinking that it sounded strange to my ears, as I always thought respecting one's parents was a different kind of respect than that.
That is why I think that it's best in Japanese not to be so particular to the word "respect", but rather put it in terms of the social order, where it is assumed that one should respect his or her superiors. With that assumption in place, there'S no need to specifically state it per se.
At the very least, I have never heard the expressions 尊敬しろ or 敬服しろ or the like in real-life Japanese.
Of course, it depends on the situation, but it's say, a member of your staff that isn't showing the proper respect to a patient, I might say something like 患者さんと話してるときは、もっと適切な言葉で話しましょうね。 Although I'd have to say that I'd never say "give me the respect I deserve" in either English or Japanese; it just sounds like an invitation to treat me with even less respect :p
I was assuming more roundabout expressions had been tried and for one reason or another, found ineffective or nonmotivational. If it isn't an issue with wording or cultural communication but with a basic level attitude of your employees, as I'm starting to suspect, that's also quite a different story altogether.
Thanks for all who posted.
I don't see the contradictions you're talking about. I said, or maybe I should say meant to stress more emphatically, was that translations were possible, the core meaning of the word didn't necessarily change (based on dictionaries & people I've spoken with) but 'respect' as a term was hardly used in Japanese for the cultural reasons already stated so that it isn't a natural expression. :bluush:
What you're doing now I assume is trying a different take on what you've done before -- using a softer, less direct approach for these problems ?
With your boss, your co-worker or customer asking unreasonable request, or with your girlfriend?
In the absence of that, I sincerely hope you've found some of these suggestions useful but any translation advice really does become a process of hit and miss reading into the various insinuations. :blush: Yet, as you've indicated, surely those gentler, nuanced alternatives are well known already....:wave:
奥が深い 言語です。:)
Don't worry about that, every single post was of some help in some way after reading and re-reading again and again.
I should have explained in more detail and I am the first to admit that my English has suffered quite a bit, as a lot of my Japanese expresions and thoughts do get translated directly back into English, to the dismay of my parents ect,ect (Sometimes it takes quite a bit longer to relate what I am saying, when normaly it could be done in twice the amount of time、in English that is).
It has no relevance to this thread ,but due to the work that I am in, I rarely talk to other English speakers. The last time I did was about 8 months ago when I talked to a guy who lives relatively near me and that was only a "how you doing" and " whats been going on" sort of discussion when we were stoped at traffic lights.
確かに奥が深い 言語でしたよね。。。
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