Upgrade from Y,M at time of booking.
I have just spent the last little while looking at AC34 and AC46 SYD-YYZ
every day from Jan until June ... and I do mean every day.....
and there are a total of 4 days where I class is available (and they occur within the same week)
I would like to give the AC lurkers here an opportunity to respond to my accusation that AC is dishonest and underhanded in stating the benefits of the Elite program. Clearly, I cannot upgrade at time of booking even though there are LOTS of empty seats up front.
Am I within my rights to make a complaint to Consumer and Corp affairs about this non performance of benefits?
MCM.
...but I still stand by my original premise that a seat will be released within 24-hours of booking. If not, you can always cancel the ticket on these fares and get a refund.
FWIW, I completely agree with Shareholder here. Sometimes we FF's do ourselves a disservice by obsessing over things like I inventory when the solution is as simple as he describes above.
Not only do they lose revenue from me. They also lose the potential revenue from the J seat I occupy.I ususally go a step further, sometimes out of neccessity. I book a *A award on another *A carrier, like SQ.
Fewer points required, too!
I'll reiterate my ICN-YVR experience in early August...
For several days I checked for I space. Most days there were two AC ICN-YVR flights but only one flight on other days. On my preferred day there were two flights. Both showed J9 C9 I0 for several days. Suddenly an I1 popped up on one of the two flights.
Upon boarding, there were a grand total of 6 of us in the J cabin. And at least two of us upgraded -- me and the guy who boarded just ahead of me. The Y cabin was perhaps ½ full, if that. And from comparing the seat maps of the two flights early on the day of departure, it would appear that the second flight was no more heavily loaded, and probably had a smaller load. What's the logic in that?
Had that I seat not opened up, AC would have lost another $1500 from me. For a few hundred $ more, I could have booked an NH J (that's real J) ticket, flying ICN-NRT on OZ, and NRT-YVR in that same kind of internationally configured 763. And I could have had seat 1A. Luckily for AC, they won the AeroLotto, and got the business.
I don't have a problem with I0 when flights are showing, say, J2. In September I had to go to SIN. One plan was to fly AC on YVR-HKG using an upgrade. But the J cabins really were almost sold out. Good on AC. I simply made other arrangements.
But in the ICN-YVR example above, something just seems plain dishonest.
From Nov to March they have double this capacity with the second flight.
So, from Nov to March they have average around 400 J seats per week to SYD.
Why can't AC make just 6 of those 400 seats available for Y,M advance purchase. They are not giving them away for nothing - but yes, they will be selling most of them at a discount for the eqivilent of a Y or M fare. -and only to their most loyal customers.
It is called 'good customer relations' or something equally foreign.
I still think that they don't really give a stuff.
MCM.
(they usually end up giving way more away for free at the gate anyway.)
I assumed since you wanted to upgrade that you were trying to book on equipment that actually has a business class cabin. Those 767s are all economy seating.
any difficulty. I just hope the HKG 345 does not get downgraded again.
Make sure you pick seats in rows 1-5 always ;)
it wa to show you how one can mangle the emaning of a senrtence when not completly quoted...glad you see the light. Personal insult my a$$...your sounding more and more like the wimps on Omni.
P.S. You'll also see - if you know anything about quoting - that mine is clearly a partial quote as opposed to a 'doctored' post.
You changed the meaning of my post, so call it whatever you want; I call it BS.
And it is not like this is the worst thing in the world that could happen to me in the grand scheme of things. Just read the newspaper every day......
My post was bitter because I was pissed off after going through 6 months of flights with the KVS tool - day by day and finding f*ck all.
(try it sometime and see how you feel at the end of the excersize :) )
I do think it disgraceful the AC can be so stingy with I class while pretending to be so generous. -Or even pretending that they are even bothering to manage it.
MCM.
Maybe we have different u/g certs as mine say
Y/M - Anytime
Upgrades are subject to upgrade booking class availability and capacity controls on the the number of upgrades permitted per flight.
I think if you push it with them they should open up the seat on a Y/M fare.
SH - you are both correct and incorrect at the same time.
I don't know whether or not Y/M upgrades are clearing at the time of booking and you may very well be correct.
As to whether or not I can rant on and on - this is FT. Were you born under a cabbage leaf recently? :)
MCM.
any difficulty. I just hope the HKG 345 does not get downgraded again.
You know, in a really perverse way, this may indeed be a blessing.
AC may have turned this into a hidden benefit. To those few of us in the know, getting Y,M upgrade at the time of booking on this route could be a done deal, if you know how to do it.
It seems a bit dishonest, but if it works in my favour.....
MCM :)
First of all you must look at the loads in the back as they could be oversold and save seats for opups after tier upgrades are done.
They also may have a decent walk up market for full fare seats.
And that BS about staff. Staff have the fear of God in them about playing with seats in the front for staff over paying customers
that's a good business practice, simply put I will cancel my ticket and AC will not get that extra revenue from me, it's only them losing out.
True enough, they work Monday to Friday only
Granted this does make preplanning difficult for those "in the know", but I still stand by my original premise that a seat will be released within 24-hours of booking. If not, you can always cancel the ticket on these fares and get a refund.
At the same time, I never cease to marvel at the masochism displayed by AC elites. Why do you even suffer such abuse when you could fly UA and confirm your upgrades with SWUs or miles well ahead of time, or now QF direct to YVR. These are lots of options and FF programs that can get you from Australia to Canada, so why bother with AC if they treat you like sh*t? It's like the old Wood Allan joke about the horrible food served by resorts in the Catskills -- and the complaints about how small the portions are too!
Or come to think of it, how everybody complained about how bad economy class meals were, so the airlines have killed them off. And offered "main street" brand name food for sale. And now people complain about not getting a free meal!
I disagree completely.
You _do_ know where this rumour comes from. ;)
=aw
And who says they are not doing these upgrades? You have yet to demonstrate that those elites purchasing M or Y tickets have been denied these advance upgades. Until you substantiate that, you cannot rant on and on. Just because there is no displayed I inventory does not mean elite upgrades are, or can, not be done. They are being done all the time as controllers release J and C revenue seats into I prior to the official opening of the elite upgrade windows.
Until a day or two before the SE window opens, I really don't see why AC needs to show any I inventory since those buying M and Y will be upgraded by the controllers upon request. True, it may take 24-hours to confirm, but when booking one can at least determine if J/C is sold out or still wide open. If the latter, then an upgrade seat will be released for the customer. If sold out, then this cannot be done until day of flight when actual loads are known at the gate.
Frankly, I don't see many people not getting upgrades and I also understand that an upgrade is a freebie unless I've paid Y or M and been promised the upgrade as a condition of sale.Even that is subject to seats being available.
I'd be careful about saying "been promised the upgrade as a condition of sale" as I am not sure this can be said to be the case. All elite cert upgrades are subject to space availability and are not "promised". I agree with the general premise of your post, but feel uncomfortable with this phrase.
I think if you push it with them they should open up the seat on a Y/M fare.
What boggles my mind is that apparently YVR-SYD J is always full of revenue paying passengers. If this is the case, who is the rocket scientist at AC who schedules 763's with 24 seats rather than the 29 seat models. At $10,000+, you'd think they'd want the extra almost $40,000 in revenue! Just because this is an ex-CP route shouldn't mean they have to fly CP metal. :confused:
I took it as if you get them to open I sometimes on Y fare then someone else on a Y fare who does not know to ask or is just flat out denied then someone may be getting cheated out of an upgrade as the rules aren't being followed
That's just my interpretation :)
I !
Y/M - Anytime
Upgrades are subject to upgrade booking class availability and capacity controls on the the number of upgrades permitted per flight.
First of all U/G's are a perk not a right and Y/M is an added feature to the perk. If it says U/G at time of booking why not ask when booking is complete. That's my point.
MY info on YVR/SYD is that they sell J quite well and don't want to give out I seats as their history is very good on last minute J purchases. Obviously it does not happen every flight but often enough for them to keep I at 0 until the gate closes the flt.
MCM is pi$$ed he is not SE anymore and the Elite status doesn't quite make the grade for upgrades on that very popular run. MY guess is that there are an average of at least 5-7 gate upgrades per flt. and if there are SE's and award seats not yet upgraded thye will beat out the E's for the seats.
it wa to show you how one can mangle the emaning of a senrtence when not completly quoted...glad you see the light. Per
Because I like to be short and to the point. ^
Not only do they lose revenue from me. They also lose the potential revenue from the J seat I occupy. :)
They actually make more money from that deal because AE buys a seat from AC and reduces a liability, which is a pretty profitable scenario for both as their recent financials showed. ;)
No doubt this sucks and makes this benefit less valuable on popular business class routes; however, I don't think you have any rights here. There is no guarantee that this is available on every flight and they can do pretty much what they want to manage inventory. You still have the capability to upgrade on purchase on the vast majority of flights, although the vast majority of flights are less than 4 hours.
I can't believe anyone would pay full J and fly AC's 767 when their are so many other options.
It wouldn't be a fuel issue:
1) Those 6 seats repalce more that 6 Y seats, so the load should be lighter.
2) Due to the stop in HNL they should come nowhere near to taxing the maximum range of a 763.
I don't even have 100K miles lifetime
My experience, on a route (YYC-FRA) on which far in advance I inventory is typically zero, but where is does often appear at a later date) has been that (1) no, upgrades do not clear at the time of booking, but (2) if I seats are being released at a later date, they do first allocate to the waiting list before changing the I inventory to some figure > 0.
In other words, one will often get the upgrade, after booking but before the 7 days H window. Even if the I inventory never appears to move from 0.
Then of course, there are the upgrades within the 7 days window, and very often in the last couple of days.
But yes, that's Aerolotto for you. No real alternative.
MCM.
The controller must have missed these. I am sure it will be fixed soon to make sure there are none.
I agree. The worst part is we had been told that I was being created to help upgrades and allow them to control C separtely. Clearly it was the opposite. I was created to prevent upgrading in advance.
On that route probably not.
J/C will be bought in place of your non-upgrade.
Don't forget, it's a honeymoon flight I would argue even year round. Also don't forget the popular D reward bookings on those flights, especially snatched up at the 356(?) day loading window (including SE instant KK).
Yes, and even though it's not easy to upgrade on BA, at least when it does happen one is being upgraded into a cabin that isn't 10 years out of date.
why don't you copy the whole quote instead of the parts you like :rolleyes:
If AC says that from now on all upgrades will come from I class.
and
I class = Zero.
It is not a huge jump in logic to assume that
Upgrade = zero.
I'm not convinced that I should be on the defensive here.
Customers should *NEVER* be on the defensive.
Make your $$$ walk. You are the customer, AC is the supplier, and until they get that people see through this this I-idiocy, they will try to play the game.
When you can't win the game, don't play. Take the $$ away. That's what I've done a lot this year, it works, and works well.
Out of my own experience your only chance at this time is AC 43/44, which is unfortunately scheduled with a 767, not a 763 (like AC 33/34 & 45/46). AC blocks all J, C and I on these two flights to HNL because they both continue to SYD. They open seats to HNL about 1-3 weeks before departure. I had a similar trouble earlier when I tried to get 2 reward seats in Biz, I had to wait until J opened up (5 days before departure) to have them converted into D.
I think everyone here agrees that AC announcing and showcasing the new J seats and Y VOD is a great thing ^ Until that day comes when you can guarantee everyone who books with AC that set up then they have a right to complain and voice it (yes Westjet is wrong IMHO for advertising TV on all their aircraft too)
You may feel that AC owes its FF nothing for sticking with them through the rough patches and that is technically correct. However, why should the FF have to phone in to get seat released for a Y/M fare? They are the only ones who can access them 8+ days in advance anyways regardless of status now that C class is separated out. Instead people here speak of getting their upgrades on H fares at the airport while the high yield flyers in some cases are now flying other carriers in their cabin of preference. No one should have to phone in to get a seat released. An H fare vs a Y fare on YVR-SYD is a significant difference in revenue to AC but they think that people will just play the lotto. It sounds as though more and more will not.
You either have some seats for upgrades or you don't and then you do comps when the flight is oversold on cheap fares. Full flight does not mean full revenue potential
Those that are "whining" are telling AC what they need to do to get some high $ spenders back on their aircraft instead of having to sell some extra Tango seats to fill that plane. They are asking AC to help them fly AC. That is not whining, it's called feedback from your best customers and should be considered.
BTW, if AC is selling so many high fares then why were they doing the Elite for 27k this year to so many and SE for less as well? Me thinks that some of those FF's decided to go Tango and aren't giving AC the money they want even though the flights are full.
Before you dismiss my remarks by mentioning loads I have no problem with AC and am glad they are doing well but it doesn't mean they couldn't be doing better by listening to their customers. Sometimes when you get to big for your britches you split them and then you have real problems ;). That said they are doing a great job of trying new things like city passes and the sun passes. Just remember that not everything a company tries is successful and that's ok. Defending them to the death, well that's a judgment call
I think that is a bit unfair.
AC made the program and AC decided what the benefits would be for the various tiers.
I'm not whining about trying to get a freebie. I'm whining about AC making the rules and then changing the goal posts and not allowing me to play by their rules. That's all.
MCM.
KH likes to play with facts and does not tell people that AC oversells each and every class of seat.
Does your GF know just how short? :rolleyes: Touche ^
That's an old "whine" by now. AC has announced their new seats are being installed and are taking delivery of them.
Don't you understand that YVR-HNL is part of YVR-SYD? By allowing you to upgrade a cheap YVR-HNL fare, AC might be losing the much higher revenue from a YVR-SYD passenger.
for sure: I.
MCM.
I think you are wrong on this Parnel. All upgrades come out of I class. As far as the official rules there is nothing to distinguish upgrading from Y, M or any other fare except the time when you are eligible to do it. Now as far as the unwritten rules go who knows.....
It is clear that with the creation of the I class AC have moved upgrdes into the fuzzy realm of route controllers. 90% of my upgrades have cleared off of waitlist with I=0, so clearly SE are being upgraded without opening I. The same seems to happen to people who buy Y/M. So basically the rules have changed. AC has just not told anyone about them and are doing it in ways that can be very arbitrary. I'd agree that this is a scam.
PS I found I class for both flights from YYZ to HKG.... however I want to change my flight for the way home... and now there are none :( So i guess I wont change my flight.
Not only do they lose revenue from me. They also lose the potential revenue from the J seat I occupy. :)
As at 01:00 PST November 19, 2005:
Departing Airport: YVR
Arriving Airport: SYD
Departure Date: 11/22/05 6:00 PM ± 3 Day(s)
Airline(s): AC
Non-Stop or Direct Flights Only: Yes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Flight Availability - YVR to SYD - 11/19/05
0 Connections
AC 33 1 YVR
11/19/05 06:05PM SYD
11/21/05 07:20AM 763 SL J6 C0 I0 - 13 open seats on seat map
1 Flights Returned
......and at the moment all of the J seats have been sold.
So, as you know the flts do go out full and you want them to create a seat especially for you?
Screw you, AC. The result is that I've been doing City Passes to ORD, and then getting direct UA flights to my onward cities.
I figure I've denied Air Canada about $20,000 in revenue since Sept. 1. That revenue has instead gone to advance purchase UA First Class .....
Well, since they are sold out and probably making money on the route what have you denied them of exactly? Those flts sell well in J. And, in the case that you put your miles into AE they are still making money from you by having UA buy the AE miles.
Vote with your dollars, and send an e-mail to Monte Brewer for each and every flight you take away from them, to let them know how you are voting.
I'm sure they don't like losing BIS but if the flt sells out at fares higher than you want to pay what do you expect from them. I try and charge my customers as much as they will pay me for my services and so does AC.
That is true. The AC experience was far better as a SE. But, life changes and there is more to our existance than just being SE.
But I know the rules of the program and as an E am simply trying to use another
benefit to my advantage. But apparently, it is not quite so simple. It should be but it is not.
MCM.
AC was like that when they weren't flying full so I guess one could say they 'offer consistency of product'.
I booked a YYZ-LHR flight today which is showing J9C8I0. Called for the upgrade, was waitlisted, and asked about the route controller releasing a seat.
Apparently, route controllers don't work on the weekends :confused:
don't forget, I have to fly YUL - YVR, so the difference isn't as much as you think, it's an additional few hundred dollars for the 5K miles.
MCM.
Well AC maybe growing too fast right now and simply cannot keep up with the growth for the moment. They certainly don't want to lose customers but also don't want to pass up premium revenue. Its a dilemma obviously.
I don't really know what to say about the above. But nothing good comes to mind.
MCM.
They may need the aircraft for fuel reasons. Perhaps 6 more pax is 1500lbs(with bags ) of Payload that they need for fuel?
I can't believe anyone would pay full J and fly AC's 767 when their are so many other options.
SO
When seat are available they are given out......those are the rules.
I'm not whining about trying to get a freebie. I'm whining about AC making the rules and then changing the goal posts and not allowing me to play by their rules. That's all.
Have you tried booking the seat in Y/M and calling in for the U/G?
Instead I am a complete mercenary, and ask myself who will give me the best deal, right here, right now?
the miles are important to me as well, unlike most here, I do not have a credit card that gets me 1 mile for every dollar that I spend. I don't even have 100K miles lifetime, so an extra 5K makes a big difference to me, especially considering all the miles that I plan to use within the next 4 years.
[QUOTE]They made the rules, and I expect everybody to follow them, both the passenger and the airline.
And the rules say that on flts like SYD the Y/M purchase allows for anupgrade at time of purchase. The fact its in I class means nothing if the fare rule says you can upgrade. I class is just the booking class used.
Where AC breaks down is not opening up the seat right away assuming there is a seat to open up. It simply makes me wonder how the inventory is managed.
I was fastidious about the the rules during the MHD days, and I continue to believe that should be the case now. Furthermore, if AC is releasing upgrades to customers when the I inventory is showing 0, then they are potentially cheating another, different customer out of an upgrade some time later, perhaps at the gate.
Not so;the Y/M ticket purchaser is not on the normal tier upgrade window per AC rules. So, I don't see how they are cheating someone else out of an upgrade. Seems like more of your outrageous logic.
So when the airline breaks the rules in this fashion, they open a Pandora's Box. People might be thankful for the special treatment this time. But every time in the future when things don't go their way, they'll have a nagging question in the back of their mind -- did I miss out because someone else had the rules broken for them?
Breaking the rules...not. In fact they play the rules too strict IMO.
My point was that everyone here now knows when the new seats are coming. simple..and we know that whining ain't going to change that.
You may feel that AC owes its FF nothing for sticking with them through the rough patches and that is technically correct.
AC owes us continued good and hopefully continuous improvement in service levels
However, why should the FF have to phone in to get seat released for a Y/M fare? They are the only ones who can access them 8+ days in advance anyways regardless of status now that C class is separated out.
If you buy a seat for a flt on line how else do you get an upgrade other than to call in;no AC upgrade is automatic AFAIK.
Instead people here speak of getting their upgrades on H fares at the airport while the high yield flyers in some cases are now flying other carriers in their cabin of preference.
That's fine and that's for AC to figure out...if they are stupids enough to lose revenue that way then they deserve to lose the customer. BUT, if the flt is selling out in the back and they need seats up front they will zero out the front cabin. A good FT'er will know that means opup and if on a Y/M ticket and no upgrade prior to flt they should go elsewhere and hope to get it there.
Frankly, I don't see many people not getting upgrades and I also understand that an upgrade is a freebie unless I've paid Y or M and been promised the upgrade as a condition of sale.Even that is subject to seats being available.
No one should have to phone in to get a seat released.
How else are they going to do it when AC does not have an on line upgrade request format. And I agree they should but they don't just yet
An H fare vs a Y fare on YVR-SYD is a significant difference in revenue to AC but they think that people will just play the lotto. It sounds as though more and more will not.
Then they will get the message but from what I've heard they make good money on those flts so something is being done right by AC
You either have some seats for upgrades or you don't and then you do comps when the flight is oversold on cheap fares. Full flight does not mean full revenue potential
Its whatever the yield management system allows them to do. It might not be perfect but I'm sure the route controllers are working it hard.
Those that are "whining" are telling AC what they need to do to get some high $ spenders back on their aircraft instead of having to sell some extra Tango seats to fill that plane. They are asking AC to help them fly AC. That is not whining, it's called feedback from your best customers and should be considered.
I was referring to the seat situation only.
BTW, if AC is selling so many high fares then why were they doing the Elite for 27k this year to so many and SE for less as well?
I think that was for non resident AC fliers only.
Before you dismiss my remarks by mentioning loads I have no problem with AC and am glad they are doing well but it doesn't mean they couldn't be doing better by listening to their customers.
Who says they don't listen. I've participated in four AC events in the last year and there are at least two more being planned. Those are feedback sessions. I've also been to a small focus group where we let it all hang out and we know they listened as they have at other sessions.
Sometimes when you get to big for your britches you split them and then you have real problems ;).
Tell that to the WJ characters...I just read a disgusting article where Clive was effectively saying he was about to bury AC;and he can't even catch up on loads since his crooked game outed.
Defending them to the death, well that's a judgment call
I can tell you that you do not know whether or not I defend them to the death. They do take care of me and I don't whine when my wine is not the brand I think they should have or my IVOD does not work properly,etc.
If they really screw I'll be right there...........most of what I see here, particularly about upgrades from cheap fares, is simply whining about a freebie.
And feel free to rant on and on.
AC has very few premium seats in comparison to competitors.
Example
LH 747 on the HKG routes has 108 Business Class Seats + 16 First Class
LH A340 on the asia routes has 96-114 Business Class Seats if there is no F configuration
KL 747 on long haul has 70-74 Business Class Seats
We could go on and on....but at the end of the day it looks like the premium class market for Canada is not at the same level as other markets. On a recent KL AMS-YVR flight there were a whopping SIX people in business class- the flight services director told me this was quite normal. So... AC frustrates us with lack of upgrade availability but lets face it- even losing the revenue of the all mighty powerful fter group they are probably managing their business to match market needs.
Now...by no means am I an AC apologist- but talking about planes with only 24 premium seats means that upgrades will probably come at the gate. So...if this is the only answer:
Stop whinging about AC and buy tickets from carriers with large premium cabins
What boggles my mind is that given the load numbers reported here they do not open up more C class seats. Example fares for some upcoming flights (several dates)
VCE-FRA-YVR lufthansa full D fare (BusinessFlex no penalty for change or cancellation) 3001 EUR all taxes in
VCE-FRA-YYC-YVR AC full J fare (same rules) 4575 EUR + taxes (didnt bother to calculate)
VCE-AMS-YVR Z fare (Cancellation fee 100 EUR- no changes to outbound permitted- changes to inbound 150 EUR) 2675 EUR all taxes in
VCE-FRA-PDX-YVR UA/LH codeshare Full C class fare 3524 USD all taxes in
VCE-LGW LHR-YVR BA- dont know fare class rules but it is refundable for 100 GBP fee- 3109 EUR all taxes in
I have not been in revenue management for a lonnng time but Does this make sense???
For my flight in just over 2 weeks, "J" is >9 and "I" is showing as >7 for all four LHR-YYZ flights that day. It will be interesting to watch daily (yes I know I need to get out more :D ) as to how this decreases and then whether there is a dramatic decrease, ie to "I"=0 at the SE7 and E4 day windows.
Obviously LHR is a special route for AC, it has lots of capacity (4 flights a day out of YYZ, more in the summer) and it has pushed hard to attract customers away from BA. This includes Elite status offers, but also a very attractive M fare which can be immediately upgraded to I/J. This fare is lower than the one we pay from this side of the Atlantic. I suspect AC wants to hook as many UK-based customers now, so it can keep them when it upgrades to the new suites, and perhaps raise fares a bit?
It must be remembered that YVR-SYD has a finite number of J seats and AC must maximize their return, and thus balance the upgrade (and other promotional front cabin fares like C) to do this. Again, I contend that space does get opened up on request, and until SE windows open, there is really no need to block out I inventory on any flights.
I envy Minicooperman for having the time to spend checking all these flights. Must be the hours his new baby is keeping him up...
All I'm saying if you don't ask you don't get;they may elect to open up the "I" seat depending on when the Y/M fare is bookd etc.
It is clear that with the creation of the I class AC have moved upgrdes into the fuzzy realm of route controllers. 90% of my upgrades have cleared off of waitlist with I=0, so clearly SE are being upgraded without opening I.
It happens to E's as well just not as often.
The same seems to happen to people who buy Y/M. So basically the rules have changed. AC has just not told anyone about them and are doing it in ways that can be very arbitrary.
Protecting their yields is not arbitrary;it is simply good business. Again and I repeat U/G's are a perk not a right. We are all subject to aerolotto at times and have always been AFAIK.
I'd agree that this is a scam.
A scam is a dishonest and crooked deal. AC is simply tight on seats and their premium revenues are good. When more new planes and new seats are on line with possibly more J class seats I presume things will change.
I have not missed an upgrade this year, or the last few years, but I have noticed planes are more full these days and its just a matter of time until I miss getting an upgrade.....if its to DEL I will be flying another route for sure or paying the piper a little more for a guaranteed seat in the front cabin.
If AC says that from now on all upgrades will come from I class.
and
I class = Zero.
It is not a huge jump in logic to assume that
Upgrade = zero.
I'm not convinced that I should be on the defensive here.
Don't worry, you're not alone :) I agree if the upgrade inventory says I=0 then you shouldn't have to phone in to see if they will give you the upgrade in 24 hours. My goodness, put I=4 as a default and if goes to 0 because they have been purchased then go in an re-examine the flight and possibly reset it again.
Good grief Charlie Brown, this might be Airline Science but it's not Rocket Science.
For some time now, I've been purchasing Y tickets on SYD-YVR-SYD because they are about $1000 less than the same fare in the opposite direction. Last April I rebooked a return YVR-SYD flight (with a free stopover in HNL), and was able to upgrade.
But my plans changed, so I needed to rebook for a few weeks later. However there were no upgrade spaces available at the time (back when they were in "C" class.) Hoping that a C space would open up, but carefully watching UA discounted F space, I waited until a few days before the flight. During that approximately 10 day period I called AC perhaps 5 times, each time asking if there was some way an upgrade space could be opened up for a Y ticket holder. Each and every time I was told it was simply not possible, though most also stated I would "probably" get an upgrade at the gate.
About 3 days before the flight I cancelled the AC reservation (to use the ticket at a later date, when there might be C or I space available.) I also promptly booked an A ticket (discounted F, no restrictions, refundable) on UA.
I didn't get mad, I wasn't pissed off, and I wasn't bothered. I merely shrugged my shoulders, and transferred several thousands of dollars from AC to UA. It matters not to me where the money went -- it simply left me and went somewhere else.
It only mattered to me that I was guaranteed a premium seat.
For my flight in just over 2 weeks, "J" is >9 and "I" is showing as >7 for all four LHR-YYZ flights that day. It will be interesting to watch daily (yes I know I need to get out more :D ) as to how this decreases and then whether there is a dramatic decrease, ie to "I"=0 at the SE7 and E4 day windows.
I love the way some of you guys think that FT'ers are the only people flying. There are plenty of others who know the system or know the right concierge to teach them how to play the U/G game. AC is flying full these days so expect a lot more of what you call arrogance or poor customer service but they call it making money. And I own shares. :D
Lots.
SO why not make it I1 or I2. If they are going to magically open up a seat -speculation only- why not have atleast 1 seat in I? They are going to open one up right?? That is what your saying :confused:
This is exactly the point I was making before I was RUDELY interrupted.
I should count up the number of UA first-class A flights I've had this year. I'm at 120 segments, and I estimate that at least 40 of those have been UA A.
That's revenue AC could have had -- and did not have -- because of Aerolotto.
There's not much room here for debate, history, analysis, parnelizing etc. The customers go where the customers go. The customer is inherently smart, and most organizations don't realize this until the customer has taken a lot of revenue away. That's what AC has done with i-marginalization, and until they get this, they'll continue to lose more revenue.
MCM.
You should not be on the defensive. You make a very valid and clear argument. Unfortunately its doubtful that AC gives a rats As*.
The offer they make is buy Y or M and upgrade instantly. If there is no I class, obviously you can't. Whether a route controller will open up a seat is secondary. Most Aeroplan members don't even know what I class is or how it works. They only know that they book a fare so they can upgrade and they can't. Everything else is rhetoric.
Ya mean like this?
As at 01:00 PST November 19, 2005:
Departing Airport: YVR
Arriving Airport: SYD
Departure Date: 11/22/05 6:00 PM ± 3 Day(s)
Airline(s): AC
Non-Stop or Direct Flights Only: Yes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Flight Availability - YVR to SYD - 11/19/05
0 Connections
AC 33 1 YVR
11/19/05 06:05PM SYD
11/21/05 07:20AM 763 SL J6 C0 I0 - 13 open seats on seat map
1 Flights Returned
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Flight Availability - YVR to SYD - 11/20/05
0 Connections
AC 33 1 YVR
11/20/05 06:05PM SYD
11/22/05 07:20AM 763 SL J9 C5 I0 - 16 open seats on seat map
1 Flights Returned
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Flight Availability - YVR to SYD - 11/21/05
0 Connections
AC 33 1 YVR
11/21/05 06:05PM SYD
11/23/05 07:20AM 763 SL J6 C5 I0 - 15 open seats on seat map
1 Flights Returned
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Flight Availability - YVR to SYD - 11/22/05
0 Connections
AC 33 1 YVR
11/22/05 06:05PM SYD
11/24/05 07:20AM 763 SL J9 C8 I0 - 21 open seats on seat map
1 Flights Returned
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Flight Availability - YVR to SYD - 11/23/05
0 Connections
AC 33 1 YVR
11/23/05 06:05PM SYD
11/25/05 07:20AM 763 SL J9 C5 I0 - 21 open seats on seat map
1 Flights Returned
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Flight Availability - YVR to SYD - 11/24/05
0 Connections
AC 33 1 YVR
11/24/05 06:05PM SYD
11/26/05 07:20AM 763 SL J4 C0 I0 - 11 open seats on seat map
1 Flights Returned
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Flight Availability - YVR to SYD - 11/25/05
0 Connections
AC 33 1 YVR
11/25/05 06:05PM SYD
11/27/05 07:20AM 763 SL J4 C4 I0 - 13 open seats on seat map
1 Flights Returned
How can that be a whine, what he said is a fact, at least until the new seats are installed.
Part of me wants to be an apologist and say "phone AC and get your seat" but the other part wants me to say "find a different airline that values your custom and supplies you with the best schedule and comfort for the price!"
With regards to the upgrade of the fleet.......all we have seen are the seats(which is a great thing ^ ) and it must be acknowledged that for at least the next year most of us will still be flying on the un-refurbished aircraft (Intl).
With those things in mind , I and many others who mostly make intl ticket purchases , should choose who flies the best equipement, and provides the best schedule and price.
Yes, and it's all we are likely to see for the year to come...........it's been noticed that they still haven't provided a timeline for when said improvments will appear......starting to appear in April next year and progressively from then until the 773 arrive in 2007, hmmm!
So you would spend that much money to get a couple of SSWU's...wow I still can't believe you ever got into university.
None I hope
Not true. I really don't know where this rumour comes from.
Although I obviously do not have the real numbers, many days see only a handful of J revenue. Check J availabilty 2 days before any flight and there are (most) always lots of J seats left. I'm pretty sure that they do not oversell the front cabin.
It may be a different story after the refurb but not too many people want to pay real money for these beat up old horses with a midnight shuffle through HNL. Trust me on this one. The real money on this route goes to QF and also UA.
The back is far more popular with the Alaskan cruises and Whistler being very popular.
MCM.
Time for you to get some fresh air !
I don't know whether or not Y/M upgrades are clearing at the time of booking and you may very well be correct.
As to whether or not I can rant on and on - this is FT. Were you born under a cabbage leaf recently? :)
MCM.
Yes but to call the upgrade system a scam when you haven't even tried to get your upgrade is a little over the top. That's the point we are making.
Otherwise rant away but we all strive of accuracy here on info given because that is what FT is about.
That's just my interpretation :)
The rules are very clear;upgrade is at time of booking and if someone does not ask they are missing out;it does not specifically say I has to be open but that is the rule for upgrades. I believe its a grey area for those classes.
your math logic is way off
the flights that I am looking at do not continue on to SYD, they are operated by a 767, not something I want to spend 6 hours on each way, but the 2 SSWU waiting at the finish line are pretty attractive, as they will also likely be 2006 SSWU's as well.
They made the rules, and I expect everybody to follow them, both the passenger and the airline.
I was fastidious about the the rules during the MHD days, and I continue to believe that should be the case now. Furthermore, if AC is releasing upgrades to customers when the I inventory is showing 0, then they are potentially cheating another, different customer out of an upgrade some time later, perhaps at the gate.
So when the airline breaks the rules in this fashion, they open a Pandora's Box. People might be thankful for the special treatment this time. But every time in the future when things don't go their way, they'll have a nagging question in the back of their mind -- did I miss out because someone else had the rules broken for them?
My quote made sense; yours is a typical gratuitous attempt at a personal insult.
P.S. You'll also see - if you know anything about quoting - that mine is clearly a partial quote as opposed to a 'doctored' post.
Screw you, AC. The result is that I've been doing City Passes to ORD, and then getting direct UA flights to my onward cities.
I figure I've denied Air Canada about $20,000 in revenue since Sept. 1. That revenue has instead gone to advance purchase UA First Class .....
I predicted when they made the I move that they would use it to reduce upgrade availabilty. I think the facts are clear.
Vote with your dollars, and send an e-mail to Monte Brewer for each and every flight you take away from them, to let them know how you are voting.
On a recent flight the 24J cabin seats had 10 AC staff riding in the front.
If AC says that from now on all upgrades will come from I class.
and
I class = Zero.
It is not a huge jump in logic to assume that
Upgrade = zero.
I'm not convinced that I should be on the defensive here. There are a number of routes both Domestic and International, where I class can be had for the looking and is handled in reasonable manner. There are also a few where it is always unavailable. If I have made an error in judgement it is only in assuming that I class, as published, has a basis in reality. Perhaps this is not the case. I will find out very soon.
MCM.
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